Do you feel?

[beccarose]

That there is any truth to this statement "all stay at home moms in Sweden are looked down upon, in fact both partners in a couple are expected to work, and if one does not they are looked down upon, even if they don't need to be working"? Do you find this to be the truth? I was given something similar to this as a reply from someone and just wonder if I am going to have a difficult time living in Sweden if I decide to stay home with my kids? When I asked my husband if this was true, he said in a way, but also depends on the people, he did say it seems jealousy is a big thing in Sweden, meaning people who have to work are envious of those who don't and in return look down upon them. Am I going to be shunned if I am not working because I have made the decision to stay home with my kids? My husband says it just is not really heard of, unless you have a homeday care yourself, for a mom or dad to stay home with the kids. I am not so worried about not being able to meet with other moms during the day, but I certainly don't want to be outcast. Anyone have any thoughts or ideas for me?
Becky

[Carolyn]

Don't worry about it. I read the same response you did and was disgusted at the attitude. Yes, it is rare to be a stay-at-home mom, but it exists. The real problem you will probably have is meeting other women your age, because since you are not a Swede and don't have friends from early school years, you would tend to meet other women through your work.

However, that being said, even being a stay at home mom, you would surely go to the free Swedish language classes provided by your kommun and there you would meet other adults. Plus, you would probably want to arrange to have your younger kids in dagis, at least during part of the week, to allow for their language skills to develop and social skills as well.

ONce you feel a little comfortable with Swedish, you can join study groups or take an adult ed class in some hobby and also meet other people.

That being said, you are probably NOT going to find your neighbors being real chatty and curious when you move in. People are not going to strike up conversatoins necessarily on a bus or in the store or at the library. That's not the Swedish way. BUT once you do get friends, they are GOOD friends generally. Two of my best friends now in Sweden are the teachers I had for Swedish class.

As I told you in a private letter, you can't always go by what "they" say, since a lot of people who will answer your questions are not happy with their lives in Sweden and often let it color their responses to questions.

[beccarose]

Thanks Carolyn, you are so sweet! I really appreciate having you to talk to, I think I'd be lost without you! I have REALLY found (though I am not sure I am allowed to say this) people on Amerikanska being sooo negative, just like you had said. I get the massive impression that they don't even want people to move there, and if they are so uphappy being there then why don't they move, and why on earth do they keep going to a site related to Sweden? Ok ok, this belongs on the "Get it out!" forum... sorry for venting here. I guess it should be the case anywhere, I mean truthfully I have a He^& of a hard time making friends here, we have lived here (Colorado) for 2 and a half years now and I have yet to make a good friend! I am not at all one to strike up conversations with whoever, and feel terribly uncomfortable when people do it to me, so from what you said I think maybe I belong in Sweden.
Anyway, I would definitely want my two younger ones to be in dagis, 2-3 times a week, not only for their language skills but also for the socialization. Plus I will want to be taking language courses myself and certainly they won't always be only when my husband is home.
Anyway, thanks again for the reply. I need to not take so much of what others say to heart, it is clear to me that many people with negative attitudes do not really have that clear of a picture. Why they would actually try to make others negative as well is beyond my knowledge, I guess misery loves company.
Becky

[Carolyn]

Amerikanska is a good site and there are lots of nice people there. That's actually where we "founders" of Postively Sweden met. But what you have to realize is often the most vocal (or verbal?) people are those that have an axe to grind. Most often, those that are satisfied with their lives tend to sit back and not post a whole lot.

As you can tell from the general tone of THIS site, we have our problems but we also are trying to make the best of what we have and enjoy life. It's not always easy and we have our grumbles, but we don't like to allow too much negativity here. If you have a problem, somebody here will surely try to help you in a more "positive" way, hence the name.

I know that once they wake up tomorrow (oh that 8 hour time difference!), some of the ladies who frequent here that do have children can tell you better about what you can expect and not expect in Sweden. Several of them have been living in Sweden for quite a few years and can advise on the friendship thing.

[Brandy]

I just had to reply, I could go on for ever about this one, but I'll try to keep it short!

It really depends on where you are going to be living and the kind of person you are.

This was my experience. My children and I were fluent in Swedish when we moved here. - I'm american. I am generally an outgoing, open person, however, I could not make any friends at "öppen förskola" when we first arrived. This is a kind of preschool where Moms stay with their kids and maybe there are certain activities. It should be a great opportunity for new people to the area. Wrong.

My kids didn't make any friends, only felt left out because the other kids were already friends, and I felt the same. The mothers - no matter how pleasant they were - just couldn't let anyone else in on their games. (Sorry for the Rudolph reference! ) We tried for 6 months when I finally gave up. (And that was only because my kids started to get picked on and the mothers didn't see or care to see to do anything about it.)

The problem, I think, was two fold. The children there had just become a sibling in the not too distant past - so they were having some struggles and difficulties of their own. The mothers, being new at having a toddler and an infant, were exhausted and trying to cope with all the difficulties of having a second child. (I have three so I know all the adjustments are not easy.)

OK, that was a bad experience but it also taught me what I needed to know to find the right place for us.

I can't tell you what will be right for you, because there could be different attitudes where you are. However, give everything a try until you see what works. There are things to get involved in if you look hard enough. The younger they are the more difficult it is to find something, unfortunately. But there are programs for almost every age! Just be prepared that they take place after 4pm.

People will be jealous that you are able to be at home. They will be coming from their perspectives, thinking that you have everything they have and more and you have the luxury of staying at home on top of it all! People that are so clueless I've learned to stay away from. They have a bunch of other judgements and baggage I don't want either!

People do want to be able to stay at home with their kids, but they also want to be able to keep up with the Johnssons.

Don't be or get discouraged, you'll find your way!

[Natooke]

Dear beccarose,
I've been a SAHM for that last 8½ years ;D here in Sweden & we decided before the kids came along that this would happen ;D due to my husband's nature of work. I'm guessing by now, you both know it's rewarding & a challage being a parent ... no matter where you live.

Now the Sweds that I know! who are raising kids due in fact work but ... (& I'm in a very small town) ... Dad works in a factory from Mon. thru Fri. from 7 to 4pm with weekends off ... Mom works evenings & some weekends (swedes break it down 50 to 75 %) What I'm getting at is famlies strive to have the consistance of raising kids and working ... after all economics does play a part in it.

Yes I've gotten the "jealousy" speech from some ... but not all ... In fact a wide range of ages have said "Why can't more families do the same" Both these still baffal me*sigh* ... but, I assure you by doing what is best for your family is the only way to go ;D

Am I going to be shunned if I am not working

I can tell you now!! you will be working ... learning Swedish ... you will be working on helping your kids learn a new culture ... etc I isn't as easy as 123, but, taking it one day at a time & knowing you (the family) are taking steps forward It is indeed hard to explain when your there & we are here ... but I'll try & give suport ;D
until later //Natooke

[Brandy]

Natooke,

That is so true what you said about people trying to do everything possible to stay home with their kids and make it work.

Everybody wants to be able to make it work. Some succeed and some don't and those are the ones that are no fun to meet. When you're in the middle of all your new adjustments, you can't help but take things personally.

What I tried to say in my much too long post was really that when you surround yourself with the right people, you'll never regret your choice whatever your dilemma is. You have to find the people that support you, not criticize or depress you.

Stay positive and the positive people will attack in droves!

It is possible to stay at home in Sweden and have a great time with your children!

[beccarose]

Thank you ladies for your replies! I can't tell you how nice it is to get positive replies!

Brandy, I just had to laugh a bit when you said:
"People do want to be able to stay at home with their kids, but they also want to be able to keep up with the Johnssons."
Not only is it incredibly true, probably where ever you are, but also I am literally a Jonsson! ;D

Anyway, I find I get caught up in that, maybe not so much with the work issue but more so with the "this person has what I want" type of garbage. The area of town I live in is very much like that, and it is too bad.

I don't do too well with making friends, period, so I realize where ever I am it will be a challenge. I find it a little funny though, even my Swedish mil is more open and friendly than I am, and I find that once you are 'in' with a Swede, then they are so humble and warm (yes, I said Swedes are warm!) and would do just about anything for you. Not only did I find that the case with my husband's family, and friends, people who I was already kind of part of the group with, but also Swedes I managed to meet on my own. In fact I found Swedes to be far more real then the dorks here, like the ones at the grocery store who ask you how you are, and you know they are not even listening because when you ask them in return they don't respond at all! UGH!
Ok, this is turning out to be far to long, I just wanted to basically say thank you.
We still have not decided what we are going to do and when, my husband feels we should wait another year that way he can apply for citizenship and be able to return (if/when we decide) without visas and papers of all sorts, I tend to agree, but a huge part of me wants to hurry up and do it now, time is running out as far as the kids and being able to move them with any ease. I don't want to pull them away from good friends and whatnot, and that is something they just don't have right now.
Dilemmas galore. I realize what is most important is the family- the kids and us, but saving ourselves from some hassles with visas and all that would also be nice. Anyone have any thoughts they would like to share on this?

[Kitty Sue]

This sahm issue is always touchy. I have actually had someone tell me straight out that by staying home with my son I was abusing him, since I was depriving him of his right to go to dagis. I was talking about this a few weeks ago with a friend in the US and he made a point I had never thought of. He said that in a socialist society, it is expected that every person who is able to work and contribute will do so, for the good of everyone else. I think this is the "attitude" that is taught to kids in dagis and school here, so it is not a surprise that stay at home mom's are frowned on.

That said, I am seeing an increase in the number of women staying home with their children past age one. I am a sahm to a 4 year old. I go to SFI classes one evening a week and we go to öppna förskolan between 3 and 5 mornings a week, depending on what else is on our agenda. I have had a good experience with öppna förskolan, partly due to the fact the woman running it is one of the sweetest, most caring and loving women I have ever had the privilege to know. There are also a core group of mom's who are both swedish and stay at home mom's. So we have always felt accepted and are included in everything. The people here where we live are friendly and none of them have ever had a negative thing to say about my staying home. It is understood that if we can afford to live on one salary, it is our choice and our decision. I hope that when/if you do make your move to Sweden, you will end up in a place where people are accepting of your lifestyle choices. *smile*

[beccarose]

I want to know where you live!!!! ;D I would give a whole lot to be in an area like yours, where you have a group of people who are actually in the same boat and are understanding. My fear is that we will pick a place (my first choice will probably be Lidköping) that is not so accepting of it. I know the bigger place you live the better your chance of finding the right people, but I would not want to live in Göteborg, that would be far too big for me. I really don't know as much as I think I should about Sweden and what is offered where, and that is a downfall. It gets pretty hard though, the few pitiful words I do understand in Swedish lead me no where close to being able to do the searching I need to. Kind of a vicious cycle.
Thanks for the reply, I am glad you have been able to find the support system that works for you.

[Brandy]

You are all set then, you'll be setting the standard! ;D

But seriously, you said that sometimes you get caught up in the running wheel of "I want that, too". I have to ask why? I always think that all those nice finesses came with a price that I don't want to pay - not seeing my spouse, getting stressed about nonessential things in life, etc. Yeah, it would be nice to be able to afford what ever you would want, but then I think - my life would be different and maybe I wouldn't be as happy as I am now. I 'd be a lost unfulfilled soul, looking for happiness.

It's a rat race and I'm not a rat!. You are a Jonsson, so everyone's trying to catch up to you, so you can set the standard! Set it low please! Stress isn't healthy!

[Carolyn]

Believe Brandy, she's not just whistling in the wind.

We came back to the U.S. for me to work for awhile and for Anders to look around for a longer period of time and see if he could like living here.

If we stayed in the States, with me making the kind of money I can make here and with him getting a job (his profession is in demand in this state, public health), we could have LOTS of stuff. We'd both have our own vehicles. Even at our age, probably buy a small house. We could have a huge TV and DVD and lots of toys. When we go back to Sweden, we'll go back to our apartment with the smaller TV, no DVD, and our bikes.

On the other hand, if we stay here, I will have to continue working the pretty much 12 to 14-hour days I'm currently working, plus work on the week-ends, even if he gets a job, because that's the nature of my work. He complains that I NEVER seem to have time to do anything with him (not necessarily true, but certainly not as much time as we shared in Sweden). We will also still have the continuous stress involving terrorism scares and war talk every single day, plus the problems caused by my chronic bronchitis and asthma which returned to me soon after I got back here.

So all in all, we're going back to a life where we're going to really have to watch the old food budget, not buy a whole lot of clothes and books like we've done here and we can't jump in the car and take off (not that we do that much here), BUT my lung problems will disappear again, my weight will go down like it did before, and we'll be spending our time on bike trips and hikes and all the other lovely stuff we did back in Sweden.

To me personally, that's a much better lifestyle than here.

[LadyDuff]

Hello BeccaRose and everyone else,

Maybe I shouldnt be commenting here, since Im neither a Stay at home mum, nor a mum even! But, I wanted to give my opinion about this. I have to say that I think those of you who are staying at home with your kids are doing a wonderful job and you are giving your kids the best they can ever get, not all the brand name toys and stuff, but the security of having mummy home when I come from school. My mum worked half day just to be able to stay at home with me, she worked from six am to one pm and was home before I came from school, just so that I wouldnt have to be alone at home. A comment to the comment Kitty Sue got, depriving your son of going to dagis? LOL, I have worked at dagis and I have seen what goes on there, and believe me, although it is nice to have and does have a good purpose, I have seen kids being bullied by the daycare staff, I have seen them being pushed to do things they dont want to do and told off for not wanting to do it and kids who are left at dagis 12 hours a day! I like the idea of dagis nad it is a very good option, but I also think that this is what it is, an OPTION, which you have the right to refuse or accept.

I have to say that I think you should do what you want, if you want to stay at home with your kids, I think you should!! And, if anyone has a problem with that, you know whose the problem is: theirs!! Not yours!!

When I have a family I am going to do the same as my mum did! Im going to see if I can work part time so that I can be home for my kids! Ok, they might not have all the things that their friends have, but they are going to have parents that are there for them and do everything they can to give them a safe and happy childhood and start in life....

Well, that`s all I wanted to say
Good Luck!

[Natooke]

I posted a while back on PS. about dagis v. Öppna F. and the difficulties I had ... btw this is not negitive post, it's just the plain truth & if I could of spoken on a forum like this it would of really of helped, but I didn't ... sigh

Way back the law here was ... if you were not working your child didn't have a place in dagis ... you needed to either be in school or working ... hence Öppna Förskola.

warning this may take a while to explain


I went to ÖF twice a week ... why? so that my child could interact with his peers. I in turn needed dialoge with other Mom's. I saw right away that my boy had not developed like his peers (ie still crawling while others were toddeling) I asked the lady who was running the who shoebang ... she in turn couldn't answer any questions that I had ( btw trained as a dagis teacher) The other Mothers didn't want to touch the subject i.e. they had enough going on in their lifes. There was one mom who reconized I was in need of dialoge & urged me to start at the BVC ... she explained to me that even though BVC could really only refur me to doctors ... they still have resoures .. off I went to BVC & got a refual to see the doctor so in turn they can refur you to another.
(*moral here but later)

Later ... seeing that there was something different with Kyle ... his development wasn't like the others and the refural we had the doctor said he couldn't do anything for him until he turned 2 "but in the mean time boys develope much later" .........

This is when I started getting sick sadly i couldn't eat nor sleep and I cried all the time ... i mean in the corner sobbing out of control ... I had what you call a good old fashion depression going on ... I use humor, but still it isn't something you laugh off

My dear husband made an appointment to see my (choosen) doctor & she in turn looked after me & prescribed meds. In the mean time she wrote a letter saying if this child isn't placed in dagis for the good of his mother & him , she would resort to other means

All this because we wanted our child to be in dagis a couple of times out of the week cus ÖF the kids were getting younger and he was getting older ... I mean how does your 2+year old interact with a new born? Why does a "swedish child" slip through the cracks? I had a ton of questions but sadly i got "well that's just how it is" ... All this cus we choose to have one parent at home (me).

With in weeks our son was placed in dagis The teachers were very helpful ... I had dialoge ... a refural was sent into a specialist ... wherewe still today have checkups at "habiliteringen" centre for "challanged kids" ... later our daughter was placed in dagis for 15 hrs a week ... she'll be entering lekis fall of 2003
Here comes my moral ... i think

I will still continue to be a SAHM for many reasons I've stated. What I went through i would never wish on my worse enemy I have climbed a very big mountain and on the way up I had people who reached out their hand ... never let others drag you down for the choices you make ... even if you scratch a knee on the way up

Since then the laws have changed in Sweden and the view is brighter at the top for me ... even thou some don't see the summit.

Hope I wasn't too negitive
Natooke

[Natooke]

OMG I posted under the wrong subject am I the first here. ?? to do that ? so please disregard my post under"i think i'm loosing my english" cus I really am loosing my mind